Episode 4

EPISODE 4

Caste Abolition: Building Power Through Epistemic Justice | Thenmozhi Soundararajan

In our fourth episode, we are in conversation with Thenmozhi Soundararajan, a technologist, transmedia artist and activist. Thenmozhi is the Executive Director of Equality Labs, a South Asian power-building organization that uses community research, political base-building, culture-shifting art, and digital security to end the oppression of caste apartheid, Islamophobia, white supremacy, and religious intolerance in both the diaspora and the South Asian subcontinent.

Transcript

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SECTION 1: Opening

You are listening to the Unsettling Knowledge Inequities podcast, presented by the Knowledge Equity Lab (housed at the University of Toronto’s Centre for Critical Development Studies) and SPARC (the Scholarly Publishing and Academic Resources Coalition). 

Section 2: Intro 

Safa

Those of us who are part of diasporic communities often intimately confront both the trauma and beauty of our personal, familial and community experiences. 

While institutions often prefer to classify us into one static, homogenous group –  on a daily basis, we experience and deeply understand the many divisions and complexities of our multiple identities and communities. 

Today we are in conversation with Thenmozhi Soundararajan, a technologist, transmedia artist and activist who believes story is the most important unit of social change. 

Thenmozhi is the Excutive Director of Equality Labs, a South Asian power-building organization that uses community research, political base-building, culture-shifting art, and digital security to end the oppression of caste apartheid, Islamophobia, white supremacy, and religious intolerance in both the diapora and the South Asian subcontinent. 

Equality Labs provides practical tools for communities to make new interventions in longstanding systems of oppression and advocate for themselves. They center the leadership, knowledge and lived experience of South Asian caste oppressed, queer, and religious minority communinities in an ongoing redefinition of South Asian identify across the world.

Section 3: Main Content 

Thenmozhi  

So my name is Thenmozhi Soundararajan and I’m the Executive Director of Equality Labs. We are a national, Dalit civil rights organization based in the United States. But we work on all sorts of aspects related to the end of caste apartheid – from knowledge production, to creative organizing, to policy change, we try to do whatever we can to build power to end this violence in our lifetime.

So I think what’s so important, particularly for your audience that’s based in the diaspora, is that I am a Dalit American. I’m someone who’s caste oppressed that was born in the United States. And I experienced definitively my own parents’ trauma from having, you know, fled cast apartheid in India, while also seeing them retraumatized by experiencing castist practices in the diaspora. And I myself also face that. 

So when we’re using this term caste, like what does it mean? And caste is a social category, analogous to race, but not the same thing as race, which was created centuries ago in Hindu scripture, with the idea that you could classify people on the basis of their caste, which would determine both their spiritual purity and their job in life. And therefore, when you are born, your family has a cast that you’re born into, and cast thereafter determines the whole of your life. It determines, you know, your job, where you live, who you worship, who you’ll marry, and ultimately, the access to structural power, as well as your ability to, you know, protect yourself from violence, structural and interpersonal. 

And what was so interesting to me about, you know, how vast and how big caste apartheid is, is that when you’re talking about, you know, people who are Dalit – in India alone, we’re talking about 260 million people. And every hour, and every day, we have Dalits that are murdered, raped, and their houses are burned. Every single day. 

And it was so interesting being a dalit in the diaspora, because while we don’t experience caste in the same way that our brothers and sisters in India do, it was very clear from how traumatized my family was growing up, that they lived through deep violence. And they didn’t have words to speak about it. Because we don’t talk about what’s happened in our homelands in the diaspora. And in fact, I think my parents thought like, if they didn’t talk about it, they wouldn’t pass on the pain and the violence of caste. However, what they could not, you know, possibly anticipate, was that dominant caste people, once they came to Canada and the United States and the UK and Australia -everywhere that you see significant diasporic populations, dominant caste networks began creating the logic of caste here. And that showed up for me in lots of different experiences like in interpersonal contexts where I had dominant caste parents practice untouchability on me, switching out plates while I was eating, when I shared with them that I was untouchable. I also had bullying from dominant caste students in my younger years, as well as in college. And also I think that ,you know, structural violence like where you see very few dalits that are in power in our institutions, South Asian institutions in the diaspora. As well as, you know, straight up discrimination and slurs. And I have been called many casteist slurs, particularly once I was out – and I was one of the first publicly out Dalits in the United States. And it’s violent. It’s very, very, very violent. 

And this is one of the reasons why I worked to found Equality labs with my other Dalit, feminist sisters. We felt like we needed a political home for Dalits who were seeing, you know, structural discrimination outside of India and South Asian homelands, in the diaspora, to be able to create policies of accountability and processes where we might be able to get justice. Because like, you know, whatever you can say about, you know, the settler colonialism and racism in countries like Canada and the United States, we can say that there is at least a modicum of a rule of law that we can try to take advantage of, because of the benefits and the struggles of civil rights movements and BIPOC organizers who helped create a pathway towards some form of racial equity, even though that promise has yet to be fully delivered. Dalits have an experience in the diaspora where we can actually try to get some relief, because dominant castes aren’t in charge of American institutions the way they are in our homelands. So that is a big reason why I began do this work, was I started to see, like myself, many other caste oppressed peoples who were experiencing caste discrimination. Very few institutions had the cultural competency to be able to deal with and understand this problem. And so we became this very powerful home for people who were caste oppressed scholars, people who are caste oppressed advocates, people who are caste oppressed social workers, to provide like a place for our people to get safety and justice and power. 

And we made this decision to found it because, you know, several of us who were in Equality Labs, were women involved in transnational campaigns related to caste based sexual violence. And what we saw was that there was a real need in the diaspora to be able to have a strong base to both challenge, you know, dominant caste networks who did not want to acknowledge caste as, you know, an area of which there needed to be a reckoning in terms of our community’s understanding of caste oppression. But also to be able to create safe spaces for Dalits to be more visible in the diaspora overall. And I would say that since we have begun our work, we see more and more Dalits engaged across the South Asian spectrum and within larger society, because again, like we are creating that pathway to power where people really see our communities present and fully manifest in ways that other communities have dominated the South Asian discourse for many years. And so that ability to be present in that way has been really remarkable.

Safa 

As one of the stakeholders in social change processes, diasporas have a unique role in the dynamic of social movements. 

Thenmozhi  

So I think one of the challenges of diaspora is that you need to actually be very committed to the work of being connected to and listening to and accountable with grassroots movements in our homelands. Oftentimes, you have diaspora organizations, sometimes working in counter purposes, or sometimes working in parallel efforts. And it’s important to try to have some form of communication, even if it’s like a touch point of once a year, try to have that, you know. But I think beyond that, the other area where I think there’s like some really important places for the diaspora to have a role is that we know a lot of funding comes from the diaspora to support anti-democratic processes back at home. So people being conscious of where’s their family money going to? What are the kinds of political positions that their families might be taking? And is that pro democracy? Or is it anti-democracy? I think those are all things that can be very valuable things that diaspora can do. I also think the diaspora can be very practical in terms of being very direct about casteism that they see, particularly if they’re having organizations that are homogenous in terms of caste identity, if there’s not enough outreach, you know, to other casted communities, and to also be really open about the fact that, you know, it’s not a progressive space if it’s not interfaith and intercaste. And if you’re finding that you keep landing on homogenous formations, that means something is happening about why caste oppressed people are staying away. And so, you know, it’s not the work of Dalits to figure that problem out. I think it’s really the work of dominant caste people to really have those conversations about themselves to better understand what’s going on. 

Safa  

In the process of building a political home for cast oppressed peoples, Equality Labs uses different strategies, including community research, art and writing, as tools and sites of social justice. Equality Labs draws on the expertise and knowledge of co-creators who collectively and creatively work towards caste abolition. In that process, they not only aim to generate knowledge but also to generate hope. 

Thenmozhi  

So most people can’t be given to fight for freedom, because they can’t imagine themselves to be free. And so one of the most powerful places to create connection and community is in the imaginary. And what I’ve found with many caste oppressed people in the diaspora is that because there is such a taboo, and many, many caste oppressed people have, you know, shared how often they have been gaslit, or been told that they can’t speak to these issues, because of dominant caste people not wanting to recognize this as a problem. And so I think when that happens, and when that occurs, you know, people really need a place for resonance and a place to be mirrored, to have the confidence to be able to step forward and say: this is my truth. I’m a survivor of violence. But I’m also the builder of power beyond this violence. And I think that’s really been so powerful in terms of our work, is that we have so many different places for Dalits to be able to see themselves – whether it’s through data and our community based research, our cultural organizing, and our artwork that really gives an emotional home to some of our feelings and thoughts and expressions of justice. But also in terms of our writing and our new platform, the Blueprint, where we’re seeing journalism come up from dalit and other caste oppressed writers. All of these things are about creating a vibrant, you know, cultural ecosystem for dalits to be able to see themselves beyond violence, and to find power and hope with each other. And hope is a very rare commodity, especially as times as dark as they are right now. And yet, again, sometimes it just takes that right spark, that right potential to open up possibility that you’re able to go forward and build in the ways that you need to. So I think that that really is like where I’ve seen us be able to build connection across cultural organizing and other processes in a way that’s been very profound. 

Safa  

While experiences of violence in all forms has been a long standing reality for caste oppressed people, the context of the past year has been particularly challenging and has prompted a deep commitment to prioritizing healing justice. 

Thenmozhi  

I think that what’s so important to keep in mind right now is that we have been through a brutal, brutal, brutal year. And for, you know, for those of us in the United States, we opened up the year with genocide, right, with the passage of the CAA. Then we went into a pandemic, then there was an uprising, right, with the George Floyd murder, and all of the reckoning around racial justice that happened in our communities, and then ended with a coup, right? That was just all in one year! And that’s rough. That is like such an extended period of violence, and the violence isn’t over. Like so even though in the United States, like Biden won, and we’re in a transfer of power, we still also have so many brothers and sisters in India, that are still under the genocidal horizon over there. And that makes it so difficult to think about, how do you prepare to hold hope in such dire and difficult times? Particularly when we’ve lost so many elders and so many people to COVID. And, you know, COVID disproportionately affected Dalit peoples were many, many, many delet, families across India had lots of COVID. And also, there was a rise of COVID atrocities. So all of that was just incredibly devastating to manage and to handle. And our group was working with many groups in terms of mutual aid and other support. And the thing that I think came out of it is that Dalits are always expected to be the movements’ soldiers and fighters. But I think this is a time when we get to say: we need to heal, we have a commitment to be able to choose life. And we need to be able to choose life in a way that allows us to live with dignity, but also create a little bit of peace. And I think that, you know, that doesn’t mean that we aren’t part of the resistance. And you know that we don’t build power against dominant caste people. But I think choosing healing also means for us to be able to create time to understand, who are we beyond violence? Who are we when we are fully rested? Who are we when we are fully healed? Who are we when we get to be able to have love without boundaries, without borders, without violence. And I think that is really what for me, this commitment to healing justice really looks like. We have a lot of pain and trauma in our community, from centuries, but really, also from this last year. And so as part of that commitment, like we’re hiring our first Healing Justice Director, we’re going to be having programs committed to healing all throughout 2021. And again, I think like you can’t fight for Dalit life and Dalit resistance if you don’t value Dalit life. And I think that for us, that question of healing is all about how do we value our lives? How do we create a space where we can be whole? And that’s a hard question because, you know, the opposite of genocide is life. And so asking these questions are not without stakes, we know what the stakes are. And I think that’s why we are committed to choosing life with each other and for our people.

Safa  

One of the many initiatives that Thenmozhi has co-initiated is Dalit History Month, a participatory, radical, history project – which celebrates and documents Dalit resistance and power. In so doing, it counters the epistemic violence of the bhraminizal gaze. It also further challenges the approach of academic institutions that often study Dalits without Dalits in collaborative or lead roles of research. 

Thenmozhi  

Dalit peoples have celebrated our resistance against brahmanism for many centuries, like we are here because we recognize each other’s power and each other’s movements. And it’s a history not often recognized by other dominant caste communities, but we hold our history. And so you know, I believe, like one of the first people to actually write about a call for Dalit history month was a Tamil author. I think it was maybe even in like early 2000s, or maybe mid 2000s. But I think what was so interesting is that parallel to that call, you know, a group of us Dalit women who were actually working on issues of sexual violence and were really tired of seeing experiences related to Dalit women only be about atrocity were like, let’s celebrate Dalit history month. And I remember you know, I was able to work with several people including ________, Christina Dhanaraj, Sanghapali Aruna, Manisha ___, and Asha Kowtal – and we just threw like a Wikimedia edithon and we talked about, like, what would be wonderful about – if we celebrated Dalit History Month, and during that time we created little cards for every day of April to celebrate the history of Dalit peoples. And it became this like runaway hit. Because, again, I think people had been hungry to hear and see more representations of our history and our power. And it went from this very small, very powerful social media call to, you know, a global event that’s celebrated by institutions around the world, and with people really owning and talking about the power of Dalit history. And I think that what’s so important for people, especially for people committed to caste abolition, is that ,you know, the history of Dalit history is the history of resistance of brahmanism in the subcontinent. So all of those things that are so challenging in terms of heteropatriarchy in our communities, where people are disposed of, or told that they’re not respectable, or are removed in terms of their proximity to knowledge – all of those things come from those brahminical traditions. And at every step of the way, there were Dalit peoples that resisted, either through new spiritual traditions, or through philosophical engagements, or political engagements – up to this moment right now. And I think the power of this almost like epistemological reset, that Dalit scholars have been engaging with for many years, is the power of Dalit History Month. That when we touch our history, when we are connected to our roots, we are better able to be grounded to our past in order to envision a caste free future. And so that to me is the power of Dalit History Month, is we are able to see radical Dalit futures collectively together. And this year’s Dalit History Month is connected to hope. And so we’re really going to be featuring as many histories as we can that focus on hope and power building in dark times, because this is a hard time for our people. But our ancestors have survived other similar hard times. And so we’re hoping that we’ll be able to use that to inspire people and get people connected for the next year.

And also, I think that memory is such a deep part of what gets fractured in the face of violence. So when we are able to create our own narratives around it, we’re able to heal very deeply within that sphere. And so I think, to assert our own narrative is to assert our own power, and is to reclaim our stories from the brahminical gaze, which is so violent and so brutal in its treatment of our peoples and our inner spirits, as well as our physical labor and our bodies. And so to do that is really quite a deep part of our process of liberating ourselves from caste. 

Safa  

As briefly mentioned earlier, another project in which research, writing and storytelling is being used is through the launch of Equality Lab’s new journalism platform called the Blueprint. The platform further amplifies the analysis and perspectives of caste oppressed contributors and is a critical counter initiative to mainstream media. 

Thenmozhi  

Well, it’s so interesting, I think that the Blueprint for us was our entry into journalism. And we felt that it was very important to have a Dalit feminist news platform where we can see journalism alongside analysis that really reflects kind of some of the urgent stories and cultural stories of our community. And, you know, it is one of our first attempts to create a platform like this. You know, I think it really came out of a lot of thinking about how Dalit women’s voices were mediated by other news platforms, but that we ourselves wanted to have an unfiltered but also very highly rigorous space for community journalism, that could speak to not just the problems, but the solutions in our community. And we have so many issues that are facing us, like from COVID, to climate change to atrocity, we felt that if we didn’t have a space where we could actually put together an intersectional lens that included both caste and gender and sexuality, as well as identity, and immigration, that we would not be able to have a place where we could really be able to talk through some of the most difficult issues we’re facing. And so that is a reason why we built the Blueprint. And you know, we’re really looking forward to see it grow and develop, particularly as it takes its time to grow. 

Safa  

Furthermore, Equality Labs has several ongoing projects related to digital rights and security. Globally, digital and social media platforms have become tools for popular education and community organizing –  but these platforms are not neutral – they are tools of corporate and state surveillance and often shape and control whose voices and knowledge are legitimized, heard and seen. 

Thenmozhi  

Well, I think we have to keep in mind that while we might be doing democratic processes on these platforms, these platforms are not democratic, they are corporate surveilled places. And in fact, they are often complicit with the creation of violent dynamics that are destabilizing our communities, both here and back in our homeland. So it’s a very chilling thing to know that we have corporations like Google, and Facebook, and Twitter that often collaborate with the government on investigations related to harming our community members. And so I think that it’s really time that we ask for corporate responsibility from these corporations. Because again, this is not a normal time to do business in South Asia, we have multiple countries that are descending into genocide, there was like a coup in Myanmar. And these companies are operating as if it’s business as usual. And what we need instead is transparency from these companies about what it means to do business in genocidal markets. And what are their assurances as it relates to human rights defenders about how they will not violate user’s rights when a government is asking for extra legal demands related to those citizens and their safety – particularly as a country goes into genocide. And a really good example for people to think about is that, you know, Facebook, and Google, and Twitter are kind of facing the same choice that IBM had during the Holocaust. And when IBM was asked to work with the Nazi regime to provide administrative functions support to the classification of the people who were being sentenced to the Holocaust and the concentration camps, they could have turned down that contract. But they didn’t. They actually went forward and helped to make a brutal, deadly process more efficient. And I think that’s what’s really on the table here is that these companies are making money off of genocide. And that’s very difficult for us to kind of reckon with because these are North American companies. They are registered here. And it’s important for us as Americans to think about are we comfortable that companies who are American are complicit with processes that are destabilizing democracies abroad, and could be used against hundreds and millions of vulnerable cast suppressed and religious minority users. And that’s our role, like we can’t do a lot outside of our country, you know, outside of the diaspora, but one of the things we can do here is hold these corporations that are making money off of atrocity and violence. And that’s exactly what our call for action has to be right now.

Safa  

Recently Equality Labs launched a survey called “Caste in Tech” to analyze the practice of caste oppression amongst people of South Asian ancestry in US-based technology workplaces. This was in light of  California’s Department of Fair Employment and Housing launching a lawsuit against Cisco for caste discrimination toward an Indian American engineer. It is the first time in U.S. history that caste is at the core of a discrimination case.

Thenmozhi  

What’s interesting is we have a report called Caste in the United States, which documents caste across many different institutions. And the thing that was pretty shocking for me is that one in four Dalits experienced some form of physical assault, one in three experienced discrimination in the educational setting, and two out of three experienced discrimination in the workplace. And that data really was the precursor to this, you know, very big historical case in California, where the state of California is suing Cisco for caste discrimination. And the thing I thought that was so profound about it is that, you know, once that case came out, we had so many people reach out to us about caste discrimination in the workforce, and not just in technology. We’re seeing caste discrimination in workplaces, like restaurants and domestic workers, we also see it in healthcare, we see it in the legal field, we just see it everywhere. And we also have workers across many different technology companies who also talk about caste as they see it, because again, it’s a field where there are a lot of South Asians. And so wherever you have a lot of South Asians, you’ll see caste start to reorganize itself. So I think that you know, our process right now is like we’re in the middle of processing all of that data that we got right after the Cisco case, and we’re creating a report that will look very specifically at caste in tech, and also working with workers all across North America, who are working to mobilize and add caste as a protected category in their workplaces. So I definitely encourage people who are listening, if they’re either part of the university or if they are part of a workplace that would like to add caste as a protected category, please reach out because we’d love to connect with you, also bring you into some of the working groups related to this work. You know, there’s so much groundswell right now to make this happen. And it’s a really incredible moment to be able to see this shift happen and we encourage, you know, everyone who wants to speak out to find us, and we’ll connect to you. 

We actually do a lot of work on cast in tech. And in that regard, we do a lot of work related to digital security and support for community safety from cyber attacks, we also have worked in terms of building platforms and other apps, and then also do a lot of thinking in terms of user design, and thinking about how caste impacts all the flows of the development of technology. Whether it’s in terms of the hiring, in terms of how they’re understanding user practices, to where apps get deployed. Caste oppressed people are a serious market designers need to speak to, particularly as India is the second largest market in the world, and Dalits and caste oppressed people make up a huge component of that market. So that’s how I see my role as a technologist is that, you know, I help to make technology products as well as think as a theorist about caste and tech in ways that are about making sure that we do not see that bias embedded across the pipeline of technology as we move forward to create processes of accountability of where it exists currently.

Safa  

In recognizing the diversity of platforms and mediums in which knowledge is expressed, understood and engaged with, Thenmozhi is also engaged in podcasting. She is the host of a podcast called Caste in the United States, a collaboration between FirstPost and Equality Labs.

Thenmozhi  

It’s one of the first podcasts that has opened conversations with both caste privileged and caste oppressed peoples about how caste was formed. And I really love this podcast, because it’s very intimate. And it really shows how personal the development of caste is for each person in their family. And we don’t often hear from dominant caste people about how their caste privilege is formed. But hearing that really makes an incredible difference, I think. And so I just really want to flag that, you know, if you haven’t heard of it, just look it up, Caste in the United States podcast with the Equality Labs and First Post, there’s some great episodes, and we hope to add some new episodes soon. But I just really want to encourage everyone to take a listen. Because it’s, you know, the thing that you’re able to achieve in a podcast is that it’s not a speech. It’s a conversation, you know, and people really went deep in some of the stories that they told. And I think that’s a really beautiful place to hear and listen and learn from people.

Safa  

Looking to the future, Thenmozhi reflected on her current motivations and where she is choosing to focus her energy and time. 

Thenmozhi  

For me, I think, again, it’s all about hope. There are times where things feel really dark. But, you know, I think that every day, we have to make the choice to choose life. And that feels like such a deeply profound thing, you know, particularly in light of the pandemic, that when you look at the lens of every decision you do about am I choosing life with this opportunity? With this piece of work? With this collaboration? With this place that I’m building power? And when I use that as my filter, it really helps me get really clear really, focus on is this what I meant to do with my life force, my life spirit? And that makes a huge difference, I think in a lot of ways. Because there are times when people ask a lot of Dalit people to kind of, you know, where your attention gets really divided. And you may not also be making choices that are good for your health or good for the safety of your community, given how dangerous so much work has become. And I think that filter of choosing life has really helped me and helped our team that we’re working with, be able to really focus on things that are life affirming, that help build power from a place of joy and hope. And also for us to imagine ourselves without violence. I think that we have to get out of rapid response and begin thinking about the visionary. Otherwise, we will not be able to find our next steps, you know, with grace. And that’s really, I think the call of the hour, is we need to get out of rapid response. And we need to build and dream about the future. And so that’s really the work that I want to invest in in 2021 and 2022.

Safa  

There are many ways in which listeners can learn more about or contribute to addressing knowledge inequities and supporting the important work of Equality Labs. 

Thenmozhi  

The time of action right now, is really to focus on building power, and in finding new ways of knowledge building that allow us to go beyond colonial and brahminical modes of knowledge. And so I think that really requires us to slow our processes down, to better understand our different positionalities. And for us to keep learning from grassroots and BIPOC sources. So I really recommend that folks kind of, you know, if you haven’t already, like follow us on Facebook, and Instagram, and Twitter. We often will also have Clubhouse chats, so you can kind of find us there as well. And to just keep an eye out, that whenever we’re talking about South Asia as a category, we’re not just talking about a community that is homogenous, and only defined by white supremacy. We’re actually been kind of all sandwiched into this category. But there’s tensions that are broken apart by caste and faith and genocide. And so that means we need to have a lot of internal conversations that let us help unravel that issue. And it’s going to take time to do that. And so to let people move at the speed of trust, and build time for process around that, and to go slowly as we build power, and take the time to heal while doing it.

Safa  

In connection with  International Women’s Day on March 8 and Equality Labs’ commitment to centering the leadership and knowledge of women, gender non-conforming, trans, and queer people, Themozhi shares some final reflections on the need for  international, intersectional feminist solidarity. 

Thenmozhi  

It’s really important that we broaden our understanding of feminism to being a global movement, and that we need to really listen to the needs of, you know, feminists in the global south – because, you know, democracy globally is under crisis. And almost all of these anti democratic fascist movements have at their core, a deep, deep hatred of both minorities, as well as women and queer and trans and non binary people. So in order for us to think about how we hold our place of power, we need to build a feminist process for a just economy, and a world without borders, and a world that allows us to heal and center a living and loving planet. And so in a lot of ways, for me, I think about this as the reassertion of consent and thinking about what does a world of consent look like? You know, because obviously, no one consented to their countries being invaded, our lands being extract, our people being raped, our bodies being used for labor. You know, and all of the trauma that then comes down that then leads to harm in individual relationships where, again, we have learned at every, you know, fiber of our being, there is no consent. So to start a deeply feminist practice of consent means thinking both small and big picture in those processes. And so for International Women’s Day, I really think about all the women who’ve inspired me from my mom, to Phoolan Devi who’s this incredible caste oppressed woman who, you know, fought for survivors and fought and went from being a child bride to becoming a Minister in India through her ferocity. But I think a lot about how so many of the most powerful women don’t fit within the margins of society, and are too outrageous for common, you know, polite society. And I think it’s an invitation to be less polite, and more just, frankly, and to really think about, again, how can we live by asserting consent into areas we’ve never seen consent before? 

Safa  

As Thenmozhi beautifully articulates, the invitation is to assert consent in all aspects of our lives and work collectively towards healing justice.

Thank you Thenmozhi for sharing your reflections with us and all the important work you do.  

Thenmozhi  

Thank you so much, Safa and I so appreciate your time and really appreciated this conversation. 

Safa

Thank you so much – and thank you also to our listeners. To learn more about Equality Labs, visit the link to their website provided in the show summary. 

SECTION 4: Outro

Safa

We invite you to join us in fundamentally reimagining knowledge systems and building healthier relationships and communities of care that promote and enact equity at all levels. 

To co- create with us visit www.knowledgeequitylab.ca, sign up for our mailing list and send us a message. Until next time, please subscribe to us on your preferred podcast player, rate and review our episodes and share with your friends!